WHAT HAPPENS AFTER DEATH

What do you think happens after we die?

 

by Jim Staley 

This is a great question in the light that it is a proven fact that 100% of all human beings will eventually experience this phenomenon called death. It is also a proven fact that there are many different and variant opinions on this subject. It is the intention of this article not to explore the varying beliefs and opinions of different religions but to dig deep into the inspired scriptures and see what they have to say about this very pointed topic. Amazingly, the Bible has a lot to say about this subject and by the time we are finished with this topic you will see that the Bible's full context on this subject only leads to one conclusion on "What Happens After Death?"

In most Christian circles it is typically taught, at least indirectly, that when someone dies they immediately stand before God for judgment. And either they make it into the "Pearly Gates", or they are thrown into the Lake of Fire to be tormented day and night. After careful examination of the scriptures concerning this topic, I have found and will attempt to share these findings, that we do NOT go to heaven immediately when we die. That there is a holding place for both the righteous and the wicked. And this holding place that scripture calls Hades or Sheol will one day be emptied by the voice of the Messiah at the end of time as we know it. Studying this topic has also solved the mystery of the rapture as the two are very much tied together.

Some might say that this subject is not important. That we will “find out when we get there” type of thinking. According to scripture, that line of thinking is the farthest thing from the truth. The writer of the book of Hebrews says in the sixth chapter that this subject that we are discussing is part of the “foundation” of our faith.

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2.  Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.  3. And this will we do, if God permit.

The author states to his audience that the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment is among a short list of “basic 101” fundamentals that every believer should be familiar with. If this topic is “foundational” as verse one implies, then it is important to get back to the truth on this issue. How can we claim to know anything at all if we do not even know and understand what happens after we die or the judgment that will follow? When we share the gospel with unbelievers, are we sure we are telling them the truth when we speak about death, judgment, hell and heaven?

We will begin by examining the most popular verses that are used to support the idea that everyone is immediately judged after death. Then, we will discover what the rest of the Bible says on the subject and you can decide for yourself. This article answers the following questions:

1. Are we judged immediately after death?
2. Are there people burning in hell right now?
3. When does the Great White Throne Judgment take place?
4. Where do people go immediately after death?
5. When does the Messiah come back and why? (No dates. Sorry.)

 

PART I

Examining Popular Belief

At this point you might be having trouble with the idea that no one goes to heaven for judgment immediately when they die because of a few verses that you might be thinking of right now in your mind. So let's tackle some of the most popular. There are really only three main passages that are used to support the belief of immediately being judged after death. We will deal with these one at a time. But before we do, let me make a true statement. The power of suggestion is one of the greatest powers on earth.  It was Hitler that said that if you tell a lie loud enough and long enough, the people will eventually believe it. I will attempt to show you in one verse that all of us read into the scriptures what we already believe (eisogesis), versus getting out of the scriptures what the writer originally intended (exogesis).

#1 Text used to support immediate judgment.

 The first passage we will deal with is the thief on the cross. Because most of us grew up believing that people automatically go to heaven when they die, even the translator stuck his bias in here when translating this verse.

Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

On the surface it sure looks like Jesus is telling the thief on the cross that "today" he will be with Jesus in paradise. But that interpretation is based purely on the notion that we know EXACTLY where the comma goes. And because there is no punctuation in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, we are left to sometimes guess. And that is exactly what the translators did. And they guessed based on their own presuppositions of what they already believed. Therefore, this is one of those times that we are forced to look at the whole of scripture on this subject in order to find out where the comma should go. And we will do that for the rest of this article. But in the meantime, let's re-look at this verse and put the comma in a different position and see how it completely changes the meaning. Read the verse with the pause after the comma.

Luke 23:43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise."

One way makes it sound like the thief will be in Paradise "that day". The other says that he is "told that day" that he will be in Paradise. This scripture just cannot be used to support the idea that we go immediately to heaven when we die. Nor can it be used to prove that you don't. Because it is not definitive, it must be thrown out of our pot of proof texts for both sides. It is not good biblical hermeneutics to base an entire doctrine on where a comma goes in a verse when no one knows exactly where the comma really should go. But as you will see when we get to the overwhelming verses that support another viewpoint, it is much more likely that the comma goes after the word "today", rather than the word "you".

Also, Jesus Himself did not enter Heaven that day. For John 20:17 tells us that He had not ascended into heaven yet.

 John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If you are to believe, as we are taught, that Jesus meant "that day", then he was lying in John 20:17. Both passages are in conflict UNLESS you interpret the passage as suggested, which lines up with all of the rest of the scriptures dealing with the afterlife.

# 2 Text used to support immediate judgment.

The parable of Lazarus is the second proof text that is used to support the idea that we are judged immediately after death. Here is the story in its entirety.

Lazarus And The Rich Man

Luke 16:19¶ There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20  And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21  And desiring to be fed with the crumbs, which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23  And in hell he lifts up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivest thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26  And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27  Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:

28  For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29  Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

1 ¶ Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!

2  It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Strangely enough, this is the only parable that uses a real name (Lazarus). And because of this, most gloss over the real meaning keeping with the context of the rest of the scriptures and take it not as a parable that is trying to illustrate a point and principle, but literal in every point. Laziness in rightly dividing the word of truth results in bad doctrine. And as we shall see, is no light crime in the eyes of God. I will not go into what I believe is the real meaning of this strange parable in this article because I explain it in great detail in "Is Hell Eternal Torment?" (coming soon) One thing I will say is that parables are always told to illustrate a point or principle and to not be reality in themselves. Just because Jesus uses a proper name, for some reason we immediately think he is telling a true story instead of a thought provoking parable. Is Jack and the beanstalk a real story just because we use a proper name? Can people really climb beanstalks? Of course not. This parable is trying to make a point (to the Pharisees that are standing right there) that unless you believe Moses and the Prophets and "testify" that Jesus is the Messiah, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus is NOT saying that people immediately go to hell or heaven after death.

Here are a few observatory points worth mentioning:

• 5. The word for "hell" in this passage is "Hades", which means "the Pit, grave or dark place" and not "Gehenna", which is what they called the "fiery hell". Secondly, the rest of scripture teaches that NO ONE is thrown into the Lake of Fire UNTIL after the thousand year reign of Christ as we will see shortly. I go into great depth on "Hades, Sheol and Gehenna" in the article on hell.  If Jesus is saying that the rich man is actually immediately in hell after his death, then he is contradicting dozens of other scriptures on the subject including John in Revelation 15 where John explains that no one is thrown into the lake of fire UNTIL AFTER the Great White Thrown Judgment. (We will explore that passage shortly.)
  

These points are brought up to emphasize the fact that this is not a picture of what heaven and hell look like. But rather a word picture intent on nailing the Pharisees that were standing there listening that if they did not believe that he was Messiah, they too would die as the rich man.

#3 Text used to support immediate judgment.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Again at first glance, this verse appears to be saying that when we are absent from the body, we are immediately present with the Lord. But if Paul is saying this, then he is in serious contradiction with his own teachings on this subject in his other letters. He would also be contradicting John, Luke, Daniel, Isaiah, Jesus and a hosts of others! It is interesting to note that when Paul actually teaches on this subject he makes it very clear, as we shall see. But when he is talking about another subject, as here, we not only miss his point but pull something out of the verse that was unintended by the author. This verse is to be taken metaphorically and was not intended by Paul for us to stretch it like we have. He even tells us two verses later to keep laboring because we will all eventually appear before the judgment seat of Christ. It is also interesting to note that Paul does not say, "absent from the body is to be present with the Lord", but rather "absent from the body, and to be (future tense) present with the Lord".

• 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
• 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
  
• 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
  And when is the Great Judgment? When all of God's enemies are swallowed up at the end of time.

Part II

If Not Immediately, Then When?

The rest of this article will focus on the proof texts of what the whole of scripture really teaches on the subject of "What Happens After Death?" The first thing you will notice when studying this subject is that there are two resurrections.

The Two Resurrections

John 5:28  "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life(#1), and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.(#2)”

Here, Jesus is saying that the Father has given him the authority to judge all mankind (vs.27). And according to this passage, this judgment will happen all at one time in the future. There is nothing in these passages that suggests that anyone is judged instantly after they die. If that were the case, there would be no need for Jesus to say that an hour is coming in which everyone who is dead will be raised up to be judged. (vs.28,29) There is also an interesting tidbit of information that is given to us in verse 29. Jesus says that when all who are in the graves “come forth”, those who have done good, will go to “the resurrection of life”, and those who have done evil to “the resurrection of condemnation”. As if to imply that there are two resurrections. And as we shall see, that is exactly what He is saying. Do not be quick to assume that everyone is raised at one time. He simply says that "all" will hear his voice and "all" will be raised. Some to reward. Some to punishment.  Let's move on to Acts.

Luke also makes it very clear here in Acts that there is a resurrection of the dead by quoting Paul's words on the subject.

 Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 Again Luke records:

Luke 14:13 “But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind. 14 “And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just."

Jesus is telling His hearers in this scenario that the poor cannot repay the one who invited them to the feast, but they will eventually be repaid. He tells them that they will be repaid at “the resurrection of the just”. If one stands before God immediately after death, God would have to judge them in order to reward them with eternal life, or eternal punishment. And that would make Jesus a liar here because he says that will not be repaid UNTIL the first resurrection.

Dan. 12:13 “But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.”

In context, God is revealing to Daniel the events of the last days. Daniel gets too curious about when these events will exactly happen and the Lord said to him to “go your way until the end comes: For you shall rest (die), and you will stand in your rightful place at the end of days”. We learn from this passage that Daniel will die and he will not stand again until the final day. It is worthy of noting that the Hebrew word for “rest” is “nuwach” meaning “to rest, settle down and remain, to be quiet, to be given rest”. The Lord does not tell Daniel that he will be with Him when he dies, but rather that he will settle down, be quiet, rest, and remain in the grave until the last days when the trumpet shall sound and he is raised to “stand in his lot” to meet his Lord once again.

Is 26:19  Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Isaiah prophesies here that the dead will eventually live again. He also states that he himself will rise from the dead TOGETHER with the rest of the dead. Isaiah understands and is teaching us here that he will not live again until the day that “the earth shall cast out the dead”. The context confirms that the day Isaiah is talking about is the final day-The day that the Messiah returns to rule and reign over the entire earth.

Up to this point, it is obvious that scripture teaches that there is a point in time that the dead will be raised for judgment. And this point is NOT immediately after death. Let's continue.

Jesus was the "First Fruits" of those that would raise from the dead.

I Cor. 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

21  For since by man (came) death, by Man also (came) the resurrection of the dead.-Parenthesis not in original text.

22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23  But each one in his own order: Christ the first fruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

24  Then comes the end, (the end of the thousand years) when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

25  For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

There is a tremendous amount of material here in just these few verses to last for hours of discussion. But for the sake of time, we will be brief in our explanations. In verse 20, we are told that Christ is the “first fruits” of those that have fallen asleep. Paul is not using these words lightly. He knows exactly what he is saying. Most Christians are not familiar with the Biblical Feast Days, so Paul's direct hint here eludes the masses. Because of this, we completely miss the significance of what Paul is saying here when he says that Jesus is the “first fruits of those who have passed away”. If you read the article entitled Passover- The Last Supper, (coming in Spring) then you will know that Jesus prophetically fulfilled the spring feast of Passover down to the last detail when he died on the first day of the Feast of First Fruits (called Passover).

The significance of Jesus waiting three days to raise from the dead are many (Mat.12:40 is one). But, there is one that takes its place at the top of the list. Scripture tells us that the Day of First fruits starts the day after the weekly Sabbath, after Passover. First fruits was, and still is, the day that the priests would cut some of the Barley from the fields and take the sheaves of Barley and wave them before the Lord. It was to represent the first of all the harvest that would happen in the Fall. They asked for God’s blessing on their crops for the rest of the year by waving the first fruits of that harvest before the Lord in the Spring believing that the harvest in the Fall would be a fruitful one.

The Feast of First Fruits just so happend to start three days after Passover (Passover being the day that Jesus died). Jesus rose from the dead some time between the closing of the regular Saturday Sabbath and the beginning of the next day, which was Sunday before sunrise. (Biblical days begin and end with the sun going down.) At the very time that they began the celebration of First fruits (Saturday night) in hope for the final harvest in the fall and the priests were waiving the sheaf offering before the Lord as a sign of the first fruits of the harvest to come, Jesus was rising from the grave and presenting Himself before the Father as the “First Fruits” of the great and Final Harvest that would occur at the end of time. (Wow! Is our God a God of detail or what?) Jesus rose on First fruits and this is why Paul says this in this passage.

Paul had the entire Old Testament memorized, which was the requirement of anyone that was a student of Gamliel, as Paul was. This gave Paul a huge advantage of proving to the Jews that Jesus was the Messiah that they had been waiting for, because he knew every prophesy by heart. Paul was not just a good orator and persuasive speaker. He pointed to the facts and let the people decide for themselves. And this was no different. Paul knew that the Messiah was to raise on First fruits and he is pointing out the fact that Jesus was the first to raise from the dead and the rest of His saints will be raised at the "Great Harvest" at the end of time.

 Up to this point, we have Isaiah, Daniel, Luke, Paul, and John all speaking of this moment in time called the “resurrection of the just and the unjust”. There can be no doubt that there is such a resurrection for both the righteous and the wicked. The question at this point is when does this resurrection take place? Does it happen immediately when we die? Does it happen at the end of time? Does everyone rise at once? Or, is there another resurrection for the unjust? Again, let us search the scriptures themselves, and see what they have to say in answer to these questions.

First, we will look into the “resurrection of the just” and determine when it happens in time and if it is separate from the “resurrection of the unjust”. Here is a very familiar verse that will point us in the right direction.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

We can now see that at the final trumpet, all those that have died will hear the voice of Christ as the sound of a trumpet and will be awakened and arise to be given a new body that is incorruptible. And this trumpet is sounded as our Messiah is coming back at HIS Second Coming and OUR first resurrection.

1 THES 4:13 13 ¶ But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep (died), lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15  For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

16  For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

18  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

These set of verses are used quite often to support the theory that the church will be “raptured” before the Second Coming of Christ. But it is easy to see from looking at the context of all of the rest of the scripture on this topic, that this is simply not the case. We know from the rest of scripture that the last trumpet, the rising of the dead in Christ and the return of Christ all happen at the same time. And this will be the end of time as we know it. These verses are simply saying that when Jesus does return, those who have died in Christ and are in the graves (fallen asleep) will be raised. Those who are His that are still alive at His coming, will be caught up together with those who were dead. And all together, all of the saints will come back down to earth and will rule and reign for a thousand years. This is the first resurrection.

Is. 26:19  Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past.

21  For behold, the LORD comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; The earth will also disclose her blood, And will no more cover her slain.

22  In that day the LORD with His severe sword, great and strong, will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea

This entire chapter and previous two describe the events of the last days when the earth will “no longer cover her slain” and the wicked beast will be slain. But as we will see, Isaiah is speaking of two different time periods. The first is when he will be raised from the dead, and the second is when the serpent will be slain. By finding out when the serpent gets slain and when this Great Judgment happens, we can then determine when each of these events happen. John reveals for us this exact time.

Rev. 19:20  Then (meaning after the great battle on earth right before Christ returns to set up shop in Jerusalem-read previous chapters for context) the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21  And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

20:1 ¶ Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit (This would be Hades) and a great chain in his hand.

2  He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

3  and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Meaning, he just finished describing some of the events of the first resurrection)

6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death (At Second Resurrection) has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

So far, we know that one of the things that happens at the First Resurrection is that Satan is thrown into the bottomless pit during the thousand year reign of Christ in the New Jerusalem and the false prophet and antichrist are the FIRST to ever be thrown into the "Lake of Fire". Let's keep reading.

7  Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

8  and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

9  They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

10  The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they (The devil, the beast and the false prophet) will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

11 ¶ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

12  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

13  The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (This is the Second Resurrection that happens at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ.)

14  Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This lengthy passages starts out with the end of the tribulation in the battle of Armageddon where the antichrist (beast) and the false prophet are captured and thrown into the Lake of Fire alive.

They are the only two up until this point in time that have been put into the Lake of Fire. Then Satan, the serpent, is bound for a thousand years while those that are Christ’s rule and reign on the earth. Then, Satan will be let loose to deceive the nations and then he will be thrown in the Lake of Fire with the false prophet and the beast. Then comes the second resurrection (vs. 13), where all of the people that have been dead that did not make it in the first resurrection and those who have died during the rebellion when Satan is released after the thousand year reign of Christ, will now stand before the Messiah for judgment. Verse 13 very clearly tells us that there are two resurrections: The one of the just- when Christ comes back the second time to redeem those that are His; And the one of the unjust- the rest of the dead that were not raised at the first resurrection that are raised after the rebellion at the end of the thousand years.

Many more scriptures could be examined to continue to drive home the fact that no one is judged until the end of time. But, I believe, that these are more than enough to bring us to a solid conclusion on this subject. So what is the answer to our original question “What Happens After Death”? Nothing. Instead, what we have discovered is that there are scores of verses that teach that there are two resurrections: One that happens at the return of Christ and the other at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. We have also learned that the first to be thrown into the Lake of Fire is the Anti-Christ and false prophet at the first resurrection. No one else is thrown in until the end of the thousand years where the second resurrection takes place for the unjust. And by logical conclusion, because scripture is so abundantly clear on the subject, we have learned that no one goes to heaven for judgment immediately after they die. But all must wait until "their time", at the end of time.

I will close with one final thought. Paul says in Hebrews chapter 6 that the resurrection of the dead is supposed to be basic 101 doctrine. How can the scriptures be so clear on this issue and yet the majority of Christianity teach the error that when you die you are immediately judged?

If we cannot even understand the scriptures on this one basic doctrine, how can we then be so proud and confident of all the rest? How can we have confidence in the more complex doctrines when we have bannered such an error for so many centuries on such a basic one?  May God begin to open our eyes to seek HIM and only HIM and may He reveal the truth to all that seek diligently to find that which has been hidden for so many years. This is a very serious subject according to Paul. And in my opinion, Christianity has a lot of explaining to do on why it has bannered so high, a belief that is so ill supported.

May we all derive doctrine from the FULL COUNCIL of scripture and not by the parsing of a few misinterpreted scriptures that are found here and there. We must draw a strong line between TRUTH and TRADITION. Otherwise we are no different than the Pharisees of times past.

 
Jim Staley